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	<title>stillgoingnative &#187; law</title>
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		<title>underlawyered</title>
		<link>http://www.stillgoingnative.com/2008/11/18/underlawyered/</link>
		<comments>http://www.stillgoingnative.com/2008/11/18/underlawyered/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 01:31:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>tony</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[china; economics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[economics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[law]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stillgoingnative.com/?p=1085</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A friend of mine here argues that it&#8217;s better to live in an overlawyered, hyper-litigious society (where someone else is liable when you spill coffee on yourself) rather than the alternative. For example &#8211; number of sprinklers I&#8217;ve noticed in China: 0. Not sure if I&#8217;ve seen many fire alarms either, for that matter. 
This is all [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A friend of mine here argues that it&#8217;s better to live in an overlawyered, hyper-litigious society (where someone else is liable when you <a href="http://www.stellaawards.com/caselog.html">spill coffee on yourself</a>) rather than the alternative. For example &#8211; <em>number of sprinklers I&#8217;ve noticed in China: 0</em>. Not sure if I&#8217;ve seen many fire alarms either, for that matter. </p>
<p>This is all fun and games until <em>someone flies out of a building</em>: <a href="http://club.pchome.net/topic_1_15_3114713.html">four girls recently died in Shanghai after jumping from a fire in their dorm</a>. <a href="http://www.chinasmack.com/stories/4-girls-fall-to-death-to-escape-dorm-fire/#more-3328">Chinasmack provides translation of one of the posts</a>, as well as links to news reports in English. This got me pondering &#8211; does provision of safety result only after sufficient societal wealth exists to provide for preventative measures? Put another way, do prematurely legislated safety requirements raise costs resulting in relatively more harmful unseen consequences? Unconvincing: a rope-ladder would have saved these girls&#8217; lives, and surely a rope ladder costs less than the expected lifetime contributions of four university graduates. </p>
<p>[Disclaimer: my own 4th floor apartment has window cages, making egress in a hurry impossible. These are apparently to prevent acrobatic break in? Being roasted alive in a window cage will make a unique cross cultural obituary.]</p>
<p><span id="more-1085"></span></p>
<p>So I&#8217;m arguing with my friend, devil&#8217;s advocating for (surprise) capitalist-hackery: &#8220;mandated and effectively enforced safety measures in this case might have meant that fewer people in university (higher building costs = fewer buildings / services, like classes). Who are we as outsiders to compare what we observe, however tragic, against <a href="http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/11/monday_morning_eyeopener_of_fi.php">unrealized possibilities</a>? Death is always senseless, but wouldn&#8217;t denied opportunity be terrible also? It&#8217;s very complex.&#8221;</p>
<p>Sure it is &#8211; but the reason that friend wins is that she argues in favor of a working litigation <em>process</em> - plaintiffs can always be ruled against. A working legal system should allow the competing costs and risks to be measured more accurately &#8211; paradoxically, a higher number of disputes provides more opportunities to find working solutions. This of course can <a href="http://www.dumb-lawsuits.com/">lead to the absurd</a>, but from a social perspective you want idiosyncrasy far more than absolutism, no matter how rational.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.stillgoingnative.com/2008/11/18/formalizing-relationships-labor-laws/">Laura recently pointed out the difficulty of formalizing de-facto rules</a>, let alone figuring out what rule structure is appropriate for a given context. So how to help developing countries get there? No idea. If I knew; would be rich and probably have more important things to do than muse on a blog. </p>
<p>Regardless, a first step might consider differences in historical and institutional circumstances. With regards to the U.S. / China comparison, these seem to boil mostly down to deterministic explanations like the maturity of the legal systems, and relative costs of pursuing legal action&#8230; and also some softy nonsense about cultural differences, which I will now relate:</p>
<ul>
<li>Stigma: becoming involved in the official legal system carries a much greater stigma than it does in the West, even if you are the victim (has to do with the fixation on saving face?) This particular aspect is improving, but still remains a deterrent (less significant than the expense of hiring a lawyer, but formidable regardless). </li>
<li>Social mores as coordinative mechanisms: something like 90% of all disputes in China are resolved by extra-legal mediation. Prior to the Communists, religion and social beliefs had a much tighter relationship with governance than they did in the West, where Church and court have for a long time (at least ostensibly) been separated. </li>
<li>Add to the China story the pre-1949 violence and subsequent Maoist &#8220;five year everybody dies&#8221; plans, and you have are left with hodgepodge of traditional values governing interaction alongside a top heavy bureaucracy that can only selectively enforce its mandates. Complexity ensues.</li>
</ul>
<p>Generally I feel like it&#8217;s easy to blow cultural differences out of proportion when trying to solve problems, but they still matter. At the same time It&#8217;s important not to be easily swayed by <a href="http://www.stillgoingnative.com/2008/09/28/numbers-game/">arguments for tyranny masked by concern for cultural relativism</a> &#8211; the way forward certainly does not involve discouraging the <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/17/world/asia/17milk.html?pagewanted=print">existing legal process</a> (by, say, refusing to hear class action suits related to earthquakes or poisoned milk). But there are limits.</p>
<p>Ahh complexity!</p>
<p>So until someone figures all these things out (cc me), this site will be accepting donations for the <em>People&#8217;s Rope Ladder Association of Central China</em>, a non-profit distributor of Rope Ladders and assorted gear.</p>
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		<title>formalizing relationships, labor laws</title>
		<link>http://www.stillgoingnative.com/2008/11/18/formalizing-relationships-labor-laws/</link>
		<comments>http://www.stillgoingnative.com/2008/11/18/formalizing-relationships-labor-laws/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:02:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>laura</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Uncategorized]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[law]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[south africa]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stillgoingnative.com/?p=1131</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Following apartheid, South Africa has instituted extensive labor laws.  You can spin it either way you like: &#8220;comprehensive labor protections&#8221; or laws which create a &#8220;rigid labor market.&#8221;  I don&#8217;t pretend to know all the labor laws.  Instead I hear stories from people about how the laws play out.  And granted, much of what I [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Following apartheid, South Africa has instituted extensive labor laws.  You can spin it either way you like: &#8220;comprehensive labor protections&#8221; or laws which create a &#8220;rigid labor market.&#8221;  I don&#8217;t pretend to know all the labor laws.  Instead I hear stories from people about how the laws play out.  And granted, much of what I hear is complaining from one side: the side of the employer.   The labor laws are permeating the most informal relationships- for example, the relationship between a nanny and a small child- and rearranging what has been the &#8220;natural order&#8221; of the labor market in this country.  Sometimes with unintended consequences.</p>
<p>What I wonder about the following story is: 1.  What communication exists between the workers and the employer?  No doubt there is a huge power differential.  2.  How have small businesses have been affected by the labor laws?  Formalizing relationships and adding vacation, over-time, and pensions seems like it would eliminate many part-time informal work.  <span id="more-1131"></span></p>
<p>A bowling club in upper-middle class Jo&#8217;burg suburbia employs two groundskeepers (black, lower class).  A few years back, the club decided to write new contracts with the groundskeepers to be compliant with new labor laws.  Working hours were established, Saturday pay and a half, holiday double-pay, vacation, pensions, and a 4% pay raise.  Recently the groundskeepers went to the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation, and Arbitration (CCMA) to complain that they weren&#8217;t being paid enough.  The CCMA found that their compensation was more than generous and proceeded no further.  The consequences: the groundskeepers then had to pay R500 for the consultation, not to mention the ill-will which was generated in the workplace.</p>
<p>Last week I heard a similar story about a domestic worker who took her employer to the CCMA because she didn&#8217;t understand that the employer had put her pension in an interest-bearing account.</p>
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		<item>
		<title>nobel peace possibilities</title>
		<link>http://www.stillgoingnative.com/2008/10/09/nobel-peace-possibilities/</link>
		<comments>http://www.stillgoingnative.com/2008/10/09/nobel-peace-possibilities/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 23:30:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>tony</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[freedom]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[barefoot lawyer]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[law]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stillgoingnative.com/?p=811</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Chinese rights dissident favored to win Nobel Peace Prize. As well as a Chinese barefoot (self taught) lawyer. This will be exciting. China, of course, does not approve:
A decision by the Norwegian Nobel Committee in Oslo to honor Hu or Gao may increase tensions between the West and the government of the world’s most populous [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/24/nobelpeaceprize.hujia">Chinese rights dissident favored to win Nobel Peace Prize</a>. <a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/3168176/Nobel-Peace-Prize-shortlist-includes-Morgan-Tsvangirai-and-Chinese-dissidents.html">As well as a Chinese barefoot (self taught) lawyer</a>. This will be exciting. China, of course, <a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&amp;sid=a7iU0ft4oyno&amp;refer=home">does not approve</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>A decision by the Norwegian Nobel Committee in Oslo to honor Hu or Gao may increase tensions between the West and the government of the world’s most populous nation.</p>
<p>“I hope the committee will make the right decision and not challenge the original purpose of the Nobel Peace Prize or hurt Chinese people’s feelings,” said Liu Jianchao, spokesman for China’s Foreign Ministry, on Sept. 25. The prize should go to those who “truly contributed” to world peace, he said.</p></blockquote>
<p>Via my barefoot friend, CMcL.</p>
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